I think the red pill can't be reconciled with society, it is a genuinely anti-social belief system. The smoking gun there is the fate of the pickup community: there used to be one, where guys supported each other in their quest to master seduction, but it all fell apart and left no legacy. This does not happen to pro-social projects.
As for guys that get drawn to rp, the counter is that they need to find what they value in life that is above the approval of women. Really the gist of Mark Manson's Models, that's a guy who got fed up with pick-up.
i think the rp value system is antisocial but the beliefs aren’t necessarily. agreed that most who get into pickup find some greater calling; this is inevitable.
I would argue setting out to produce "value" (who defines what is value?) is a needy mindset.
Consider Alexander Grothendieck. Did he produce value? From my perspective it's more like he got fascinated with something and pursued it his whole life. I don't think he was thinking about producing value.
had to look him up, was unfamiliar w his game. i’d argue that producing value and social worth are almost synonymous, and that masculine instincts tend towards value creation, conscious or not. how that exactly relates to self worth i’m not sure but i agree that centering others’ needs in order to feel complete is a needy mindset
I think part of what makes the Red Pill thing such a persistent social issue is that nobody can really agree how we're supposed to snap these guys out of it and back into some less antisocial frame of mind. A lot of people seem to think that simply scolding guys that have fallen into this sort of self-pitying misanthropy will somehow bounce them back out of it, but that strikes me as a pretty unexamined perspective. "Just get laid, idiot, lol" is equally unhelpful. Real heads will remember the time it was suggested that people should go fuck incels pro bono as a form of mutual aid (peak Twitter discourse, that).
The difficult thing is that these guys are ultimately individuals. They don't all have the same reasons for behaving this way. It stands to reason that there is no one size fits all way of pivoting them to a healthier perspective.
agreed that scolding and shallow ‘advice’ are both useless, is it naive to think that if broader society accepted certain rp truths i.e. feminism unfairly disadvantaged men in the pursuit of equality, men and women should be granted equal opportunity but not necessarily equal outcomes, that men who value truth would recognize that and become more pro-social?
i don’t think the appeal to individualism makes much sense; sure, each guy has his own reasons but they still fall under general patterns/trends. one solution might not fix all, but could fix a significant portion.
It sounds like you looked for an ideology or identity to save you and then when it didn't (because that's not how it works) you've demonised it and are rejecting it, when the reality is you were using it to create an identity rather than actually doing the work. The problems we want to solve are actually solved through utter ego obliteration and we are the only ones responsible for that, not a framework or set of information. This happens all the time. I've seen countless "Why I'm leaving spirituality" or "why I'm leaving the Feminine embodiment space" and all that tells me is those people were hoping to be saved by something that simply cannot save them. We've all been there. The thing to realize is this isn't about Red Pill at all, it's actually about your personal journey of becoming a man. Which is beautiful.
takes a real man to admit he can review his beliefs. I salute you, Danny. May many more men come to the same conclusion, that no pill will easily solve their grievances.
This is the worst, most navel gazing, saddest attempt at jumping between the latest 'new trends' I've read in a while. It's like reading a Reddit thread where an Alien describes humans growing up.
The battle of the sexes is a permanent feature of human development. Every decade, a new version of the same “concerning” movement surfaces and media performs a ritual alarm.
Young people need something to stand for, and extremism is always the easiest first move. Remove red pill and something else will take the slot. This impulse is structural, developmental, not ideological. It doesn’t go away, it just gets refined into newer language, point at it early, keep it from going feral. Repeat every generation.
It feels like your entire objection to the manosphere is, "Yeah, you're right, but you should like women and probably shouldn't complain." I think I need to hear your vision. Because this sounds like trying to adopt the aesthetic of transcending an idea without doing any of the ideation to actually accomplish that.
I think it just kinda ends up doing that. For a lot of men, instead of teaching them to blame women for the differences, it just teaches them to accept them for what they are. Most of us (I'm a 43 year old man, a millenial) were taught that men and women were the same. Simply unlearning that can be both painful and isolating. You have to cultivate a level of disagreeableness that is hard for many guys to do without falling into a pit of greivance.
I think the red pill can't be reconciled with society, it is a genuinely anti-social belief system. The smoking gun there is the fate of the pickup community: there used to be one, where guys supported each other in their quest to master seduction, but it all fell apart and left no legacy. This does not happen to pro-social projects.
As for guys that get drawn to rp, the counter is that they need to find what they value in life that is above the approval of women. Really the gist of Mark Manson's Models, that's a guy who got fed up with pick-up.
i think the rp value system is antisocial but the beliefs aren’t necessarily. agreed that most who get into pickup find some greater calling; this is inevitable.
Which are the rp beliefs you feel aren't anti-social?
rp adjacent self improvement stuff, men need to produce value to have worth, instinct towards competition/status can be expressed in pro social ways
I would argue setting out to produce "value" (who defines what is value?) is a needy mindset.
Consider Alexander Grothendieck. Did he produce value? From my perspective it's more like he got fascinated with something and pursued it his whole life. I don't think he was thinking about producing value.
had to look him up, was unfamiliar w his game. i’d argue that producing value and social worth are almost synonymous, and that masculine instincts tend towards value creation, conscious or not. how that exactly relates to self worth i’m not sure but i agree that centering others’ needs in order to feel complete is a needy mindset
I think part of what makes the Red Pill thing such a persistent social issue is that nobody can really agree how we're supposed to snap these guys out of it and back into some less antisocial frame of mind. A lot of people seem to think that simply scolding guys that have fallen into this sort of self-pitying misanthropy will somehow bounce them back out of it, but that strikes me as a pretty unexamined perspective. "Just get laid, idiot, lol" is equally unhelpful. Real heads will remember the time it was suggested that people should go fuck incels pro bono as a form of mutual aid (peak Twitter discourse, that).
The difficult thing is that these guys are ultimately individuals. They don't all have the same reasons for behaving this way. It stands to reason that there is no one size fits all way of pivoting them to a healthier perspective.
agreed that scolding and shallow ‘advice’ are both useless, is it naive to think that if broader society accepted certain rp truths i.e. feminism unfairly disadvantaged men in the pursuit of equality, men and women should be granted equal opportunity but not necessarily equal outcomes, that men who value truth would recognize that and become more pro-social?
i don’t think the appeal to individualism makes much sense; sure, each guy has his own reasons but they still fall under general patterns/trends. one solution might not fix all, but could fix a significant portion.
It sounds like you looked for an ideology or identity to save you and then when it didn't (because that's not how it works) you've demonised it and are rejecting it, when the reality is you were using it to create an identity rather than actually doing the work. The problems we want to solve are actually solved through utter ego obliteration and we are the only ones responsible for that, not a framework or set of information. This happens all the time. I've seen countless "Why I'm leaving spirituality" or "why I'm leaving the Feminine embodiment space" and all that tells me is those people were hoping to be saved by something that simply cannot save them. We've all been there. The thing to realize is this isn't about Red Pill at all, it's actually about your personal journey of becoming a man. Which is beautiful.
takes a real man to admit he can review his beliefs. I salute you, Danny. May many more men come to the same conclusion, that no pill will easily solve their grievances.
Great shit man
🙏bless
I don’t think you were ever red pill, more like red pill adjacent.
perhaps
This is the worst, most navel gazing, saddest attempt at jumping between the latest 'new trends' I've read in a while. It's like reading a Reddit thread where an Alien describes humans growing up.
I think ur flexibility to change your mind will take u to reached safety, god bless you
The battle of the sexes is a permanent feature of human development. Every decade, a new version of the same “concerning” movement surfaces and media performs a ritual alarm.
Young people need something to stand for, and extremism is always the easiest first move. Remove red pill and something else will take the slot. This impulse is structural, developmental, not ideological. It doesn’t go away, it just gets refined into newer language, point at it early, keep it from going feral. Repeat every generation.
I find all of it truly annoying but necessary. 😩
It feels like your entire objection to the manosphere is, "Yeah, you're right, but you should like women and probably shouldn't complain." I think I need to hear your vision. Because this sounds like trying to adopt the aesthetic of transcending an idea without doing any of the ideation to actually accomplish that.
Sexual validation as a mean to build confidence in men is under discussed.
Red pill unfortunately takes all that is true about real differences between sexes and for some reason decides to just blame women for it.
I think it just kinda ends up doing that. For a lot of men, instead of teaching them to blame women for the differences, it just teaches them to accept them for what they are. Most of us (I'm a 43 year old man, a millenial) were taught that men and women were the same. Simply unlearning that can be both painful and isolating. You have to cultivate a level of disagreeableness that is hard for many guys to do without falling into a pit of greivance.