My theory is that the optimal time for a man to be vulnerable is some time around date 3. You don't want to do it too soon, because for early dates you want to put your best foot forwards, and demonstrate that you have the capability to be tough and masculine whenever you need to be. But you don't want to do it too late either, otherwise you get 6 months into a relationship, and then you discover she's actually pretty judgmental and breaks up with you.
From what I understand, this mirrors the structure of romance novels, where the heroine initially views the hero as a tough alpha dude, but eventually she's able to get him to open up and let her in. Someone could do some data analysis on romance novels to analyze this hypothesis where timing is concerned.
A concrete question would be something like: In romance novels where the male lead both displays vulnerability and also fucks the female lead really good, which event tends to happen first? My intuition would be that fucking the female lead really good tends to happen first.
Why bother dating at all if you're treating it like a psycho-game? Even if you're successful, you won't respect the woman that you gamed, so you will break up with her eventually, so the whole thing ends up being pointless.
How is my suggestion any different from the dating advice on your blog?
The conversation around male vulnerability has been a never-ending cross-gender quarrel on social media. Women say "we love male vulnerability". Men say "no you don't, when men show vulnerability to a woman he loses her respect, it happens to guys all the time". (Based on the most-liked comment in this thread, the male side in the debate appears more correct.)
I used to follow Mark Manson's advice to show vulnerability early. He claims that by doing this you actually demonstrate self-confidence and security in yourself. It never seemed to work, and I found myself wondering, maybe the male side of the debate is correct, and displaying vulnerability just triggers female disrespect. Maybe there are some parts of myself that I'll have to keep forever hidden.
My 3rd-date suggestion reconciles the different perspectives on this issue. Perhaps male vulnerability is a good thing, just in the correct context. It's a compromise position so we can stop fighting about this.
I hope that my articles will lead to men and women understanding each other better and being happier in each other's company, not gaming or manipulating each other.
If you show vulnerability, ideally it should be because you want to, not because you think you should perform a display of vulnerability on the third date or whenever.
I don’t know what’s worse, the fact that after the first girl turned away twice, you still tried to kiss her a third time; or the fact that when you said you wanted to study women you mostly mentioned male authors that you were reading…..
i think this comment really misses the point -- it isn't that you trying to kiss the girl three separate times was pathetic or embarrassing or something, it was that you ignored her clear indication that she didn't want to kiss you. that isn't about you. it's not about how you're shy or insecure or anything like that. it's about you ignoring what she wanted. the fact that you clarified that she was "actually just nervous" doesn't matter at all. you had no way to know that at the time. in fact, the only thing you *knew* at the time was that you had tried to kiss her and she turned away TWICE. who gives a shit about your fleshlight dude, both you not accepting her indication that she didn't want to kiss you and you studying women without really caring what women have to say for themselves both reflect you not really caring about the perspectives of your partners. you using a fleshlight doesn't matter, who cares bro, that doesn't involve real women in the real world
If you read the context, it clearly shows why: he was a 16 ye old in a relationship and tried to kiss his literal girlfriend. When she refuses him through body language, that is clearly just anxiety. My girlfriend explicitly refused to be kissed on the second date despite already having kissed on the first, and she made it clear verbally at the time after also refusing using body language to describe why. If you take every interpretation of body language as a hard rejection, you will lose out on a lot of dating opportunities due to women not being perfect at non verbal communication, and the burden of the escalation and approach being on the men. I have literally been rejected on many dates for being apprehensive of this and not escalating and the reason that they mentioned for the rejection was “no spark”. Always assume attraction unless explicitly stated that she is not interested.
men like you scare me. you're obsessed with women but so much of it comes from sex, and the physical validation of our bodies. reading this, i am taken aback to when i am again 22 and just realizing my only worth is if anyone will f**k me. and you're scarier bc at least with those men i barely exist, but you write about it. these women become not just people, but become your writing and are yours to keep forever in your pieces.
nonetheless a good read even though i hate men like you LOL <3
pretty brutal comment, i actually feel that i should be *less* scary than men who feel the way i do but aren't open about it or even honest with themselves. all guys are obsessed with women to some degree (discounting lgbt), but most aren't willing to say that for fear of being socially denigrated. which is partly why i wrote this. but maybe we're talking past each other
This was quite difficult to read, every woman is multi-dimensional and nuanced there is not one formula that allows you to sleep with every woman, I think all of this is missing the point of connection. Remember women have feelings just like you so when you deceive people that has lasting implications on them as well. it would benefit you to read some feminist literature asap instead of mainly consuming books written by men.
I'm pretty sure he said he became obsessed with understanding women, multidimensional and nuanced as they are, and never claimed to have "one formula that allows his to sleep with every woman", quite the opposite! It sounds like he's read many books on the topic! I'd even guess he's improved himself into the type of man women would like.
Women are not a puzzle or a game you can win with cheat codes because they’re real people with internal lives just like you. I really hope you’ve been able to move beyond all those authors you mentioned because they’re a huge pile of red flags.
Also ‘women are not exactly turned on by respect’ - human rights are a basic requirement for any relationship, not a button you press for sex.
Very interesting read. I want to hate you for it but I can't when I'm the same way. I used to identify as a lesbian until recently I finally accepted the fact that I'm obsessed with men, their bodies, their approval, their freedom, etc. I wish it wasn't all so weird.
This is actually eerily similar to my experience as a young guy, you did a great job articulating those feelings and the black comedy of being a hopeless romantic who forces themselves into the game via Learning ™️
you’ve seriously got some real issues but i really appreciate your honesty. it’s really interesting to see what goes around in the mind of this specific kind of men. hope you heal 🩵
Not going to lie, I'm surprised by the stark honesty here. I wanna say I was obsessed with the idea of having love literally forever. It never was men in particular but having someone that cared and I care about. Over the years my self worth relied on it heavily but then this year, I just said i'll accept being lonely. Maybe not entirely the same but I've felt like I've definitely had the same sort of journey. I tried casual relationships (hated it) I met people obsessed with me or that hated me eventually. It's a rollercoaster lol
i feel like the answer isn’t accepting loneliness but finding other things/work/people/friends that give meaning to your life, and letting the romance happen if it does? idk tho
Reading this felt like being on a shitty first date with you. I’m gonna go to the bathroom now (so I can leave without saying goodbye.)
fair, i usually save this for the second date
My theory is that the optimal time for a man to be vulnerable is some time around date 3. You don't want to do it too soon, because for early dates you want to put your best foot forwards, and demonstrate that you have the capability to be tough and masculine whenever you need to be. But you don't want to do it too late either, otherwise you get 6 months into a relationship, and then you discover she's actually pretty judgmental and breaks up with you.
From what I understand, this mirrors the structure of romance novels, where the heroine initially views the hero as a tough alpha dude, but eventually she's able to get him to open up and let her in. Someone could do some data analysis on romance novels to analyze this hypothesis where timing is concerned.
A concrete question would be something like: In romance novels where the male lead both displays vulnerability and also fucks the female lead really good, which event tends to happen first? My intuition would be that fucking the female lead really good tends to happen first.
Why bother dating at all if you're treating it like a psycho-game? Even if you're successful, you won't respect the woman that you gamed, so you will break up with her eventually, so the whole thing ends up being pointless.
How is my suggestion any different from the dating advice on your blog?
The conversation around male vulnerability has been a never-ending cross-gender quarrel on social media. Women say "we love male vulnerability". Men say "no you don't, when men show vulnerability to a woman he loses her respect, it happens to guys all the time". (Based on the most-liked comment in this thread, the male side in the debate appears more correct.)
I used to follow Mark Manson's advice to show vulnerability early. He claims that by doing this you actually demonstrate self-confidence and security in yourself. It never seemed to work, and I found myself wondering, maybe the male side of the debate is correct, and displaying vulnerability just triggers female disrespect. Maybe there are some parts of myself that I'll have to keep forever hidden.
My 3rd-date suggestion reconciles the different perspectives on this issue. Perhaps male vulnerability is a good thing, just in the correct context. It's a compromise position so we can stop fighting about this.
I hope that my articles will lead to men and women understanding each other better and being happier in each other's company, not gaming or manipulating each other.
If you show vulnerability, ideally it should be because you want to, not because you think you should perform a display of vulnerability on the third date or whenever.
Sure, I agree you shouldn't do it if you don't want to. Just don't do it too early, and also don't hide your insecurities forever.
I wish the bathroom could fit all of us.. I would rather escape through the bathroom window if I found one🤡
I don’t know what’s worse, the fact that after the first girl turned away twice, you still tried to kiss her a third time; or the fact that when you said you wanted to study women you mostly mentioned male authors that you were reading…..
u forgot about the fleshlight
i think this comment really misses the point -- it isn't that you trying to kiss the girl three separate times was pathetic or embarrassing or something, it was that you ignored her clear indication that she didn't want to kiss you. that isn't about you. it's not about how you're shy or insecure or anything like that. it's about you ignoring what she wanted. the fact that you clarified that she was "actually just nervous" doesn't matter at all. you had no way to know that at the time. in fact, the only thing you *knew* at the time was that you had tried to kiss her and she turned away TWICE. who gives a shit about your fleshlight dude, both you not accepting her indication that she didn't want to kiss you and you studying women without really caring what women have to say for themselves both reflect you not really caring about the perspectives of your partners. you using a fleshlight doesn't matter, who cares bro, that doesn't involve real women in the real world
If you read the context, it clearly shows why: he was a 16 ye old in a relationship and tried to kiss his literal girlfriend. When she refuses him through body language, that is clearly just anxiety. My girlfriend explicitly refused to be kissed on the second date despite already having kissed on the first, and she made it clear verbally at the time after also refusing using body language to describe why. If you take every interpretation of body language as a hard rejection, you will lose out on a lot of dating opportunities due to women not being perfect at non verbal communication, and the burden of the escalation and approach being on the men. I have literally been rejected on many dates for being apprehensive of this and not escalating and the reason that they mentioned for the rejection was “no spark”. Always assume attraction unless explicitly stated that she is not interested.
the fleshlight is logical, wanting to understand how to get with women effectively and only reading male authors is not
men like you scare me. you're obsessed with women but so much of it comes from sex, and the physical validation of our bodies. reading this, i am taken aback to when i am again 22 and just realizing my only worth is if anyone will f**k me. and you're scarier bc at least with those men i barely exist, but you write about it. these women become not just people, but become your writing and are yours to keep forever in your pieces.
nonetheless a good read even though i hate men like you LOL <3
pretty brutal comment, i actually feel that i should be *less* scary than men who feel the way i do but aren't open about it or even honest with themselves. all guys are obsessed with women to some degree (discounting lgbt), but most aren't willing to say that for fear of being socially denigrated. which is partly why i wrote this. but maybe we're talking past each other
Self awareness is only the first step to betterment. Dont linger or it becomes something else entirely.
This was quite difficult to read, every woman is multi-dimensional and nuanced there is not one formula that allows you to sleep with every woman, I think all of this is missing the point of connection. Remember women have feelings just like you so when you deceive people that has lasting implications on them as well. it would benefit you to read some feminist literature asap instead of mainly consuming books written by men.
I'm pretty sure he said he became obsessed with understanding women, multidimensional and nuanced as they are, and never claimed to have "one formula that allows his to sleep with every woman", quite the opposite! It sounds like he's read many books on the topic! I'd even guess he's improved himself into the type of man women would like.
Women are not a puzzle or a game you can win with cheat codes because they’re real people with internal lives just like you. I really hope you’ve been able to move beyond all those authors you mentioned because they’re a huge pile of red flags.
Also ‘women are not exactly turned on by respect’ - human rights are a basic requirement for any relationship, not a button you press for sex.
You sound VERY confused.
Sorry, this comment was to the author not you, but I’d debate whether his reading list was improving him.
Wuthering Heights
Good thing you have never deceived anyone! (No idea why she would accuse you of that)
the exact type of man i wanna avoid at all costs
And he’s the type who admits he cannot be manipulated…..interesting.
I love when men are vulnerable on the internet. The title alone should win a grammy or SOMETHING
:p
Very interesting read. I want to hate you for it but I can't when I'm the same way. I used to identify as a lesbian until recently I finally accepted the fact that I'm obsessed with men, their bodies, their approval, their freedom, etc. I wish it wasn't all so weird.
i too wish it were all a little less weird
I won't lie, I have no idea what I was expecting. I was just curious.
But It was entertaining and interesting nonetheless.
The title caught my attention, but nothing could have prepared me for what I just read.
understandable
This is actually eerily similar to my experience as a young guy, you did a great job articulating those feelings and the black comedy of being a hopeless romantic who forces themselves into the game via Learning ™️
you’ve seriously got some real issues but i really appreciate your honesty. it’s really interesting to see what goes around in the mind of this specific kind of men. hope you heal 🩵
You’re awful but real so I’m rooting for you. You got this!! 🩷
haha… thanks?
How’s he awful? Just curious. Anything immoral that he did?
Hell yeah to the honesty in here
Thanks for being brave enough to share your words with us!!!!!!
Not going to lie, I'm surprised by the stark honesty here. I wanna say I was obsessed with the idea of having love literally forever. It never was men in particular but having someone that cared and I care about. Over the years my self worth relied on it heavily but then this year, I just said i'll accept being lonely. Maybe not entirely the same but I've felt like I've definitely had the same sort of journey. I tried casual relationships (hated it) I met people obsessed with me or that hated me eventually. It's a rollercoaster lol
i feel like the answer isn’t accepting loneliness but finding other things/work/people/friends that give meaning to your life, and letting the romance happen if it does? idk tho
Bring back male yearning am I right